Update
It’s your last chance to enroll in “The Happiness Project: Revisited” course for 2024. Use code LASTCHANCE25 for 25% off. January 19, 2024 is the final date to join.
Try This at Home
Try a tip to tackle a topic. (A real tongue-twister.)
Happiness Hack
A listener suggests starting a “no homework” book club, where people recommend the books, podcasts, TV shows, music, and other things they’ve been enjoying.
This is a great approach for Rebels. Don’t know if you’re a Rebel? Or an Upholder, Questioner, or Obliger? Take the free quiz here.
Bonus hack: If you want the free PDF to track your #Write24in24, you can download it here.
Interview: Rohan Gunatillake
Rohan Gunatillake is the host of the popular podcast Meditative Story, which helps listeners cultivate mindfulness through story.
You can listen to the episode where I was a guest on Meditative Story here.
We talked about how to harness the power of technology to be more mindful, common stumbling blocks for mindfulness, and more.
Demerits & Gold Stars
Gretchen’s Demerit: It took me years to identify the problem: I often need to keep track of time when I’m speaking, but I don’t always have a count-down clock or a wall clock available. Once I identified the problem, I was able to buy a $10 clock that solved it.
Elizabeth’s Gold Star: She gives a gold star to her fourteen-year-old son Jack for giving a talk to the entire middle school about his boxing.
Resource
My new-and-improved “5 Things” newsletter now includes a monthly newsletter called “5 Things to Try,” which provides practical, manageable tips and strategies to help you make progress on your aims. Subscribe to the full “5 Things” newsletter here.
What We’re Reading
*This transcript is unedited*
Gretchen
Hello and welcome to a happier A podcast where we talk about ways to become happier, healthier, more productive and more creative. This week we’ll talk about why you might try a tip to tackle a topic which is a real tongue twister. And we’ll talk about a hack That is a different approach to the classic book club.
Elizabeth
Plus, we’ll talk to Rohan Gunatillake, a host of the thought provoking podcast Meditative Story.
Elizabeth
I’m Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits. The Five Senses, Human Nature. I’m in my little home office here in New York City. And joining me today from L.A. is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. And Elizabeth, you’re always willing to tackle a hard topic with me.
Gretchen
That’s me. Elizabeth Craft, TV writer and producer, living in L.A. And yet. Gretch, you know, I love to talk things through.
Elizabeth
Yes, you sure do. And before we jump in, I want to remind everybody I am doing the Happiness Project Revisited course. And it is your last chance to enroll in this course for 2024 January 19th, 2024 is the final date. It’s already underway, but you can still jump in. You know the best time to start to happen. This project is 20 years ago.
Elizabeth
The second best time is January 19th. And if you use the code last chance 25, you can get 25% off at happiercast.com/course. It is so fun. I am loving doing my own happiness project. Of course. I’m so interested to hear what other people are doing. We’re having a live check in and coming up in a few weeks.
Elizabeth
This is really turning out to be something that is it’s it’s a really, really great tool. So I hope people will check it out. happiercast.com/course and last chance 25 if you want the 25% off.
Gretchen
Yes. And then Gretchen, we got this from Meg. She said, I’m writing after listening to episode 462 with the listener who had in-laws inundating her with too many gifts. That are only tangentially related to her life. As someone who comes from a family like this, I had a couple of thoughts. First, do the in-laws know the listener well?
Gretchen
I.e. is she close to them? Does she do things with them independent of family gatherings, etc.? It sounds like they are hunting for a personal connection in my family of over by her is the desire to seize on a supposed interest at a gift giving occasion really came down to not knowing the person super well. Second, I don’t think the answer is just to roll with it, because then what the in-laws are really giving the listener is a never ending task of having to dispose of things.
Gretchen
The emotional effort of this Will Granger down eventually. I know from experience I’d suggest she use the advice you give at the top of episode 462 to state your preference. They are going to overbuy for her, so tell them what it is that you love to have in your life and have them take care of it. For example.
Gretchen
I’m totally stocked up on olives now. Thank you. But we started making pizza on Friday nights at home, and while we have all of the supplies for it, we can always use a good olive oil. Also, if you get them to inundate you with consumables, then that’s an easy donation to a food pantry if you don’t want them.
Gretchen
Lastly, she could also set a parameter around when she receives the gifts from the letter. It sounds like she was given gifts every time she visited, not just at birthday slash holidays, which is a lot trying a few. I’m so appreciative of you thinking of me, but we don’t need gifts every time we see you. Seeing you is gift enough.
Gretchen
May move the needle over time.
Elizabeth
Well, these are great suggestions that I love the fact that this is a person who’s clearly speaking from experience. Yes. This is a way that certain people express their affection, their love, their interest. It’s very well-meaning and these are really great suggestions for making sure that it’s well received as well as well intended.
Gretchen
Yes, I like the suggestion for consumable oils. Yes.
Elizabeth
Smart Elizabeth this week are try this at home suggestion is to try a tip to tackle a topic which is like Peter Piper picking a pack of peppers.
Gretchen
We love alliteration.
Elizabeth
We love a little bit. And research does show that alliteration makes ideas more memorable and more powerful. So we’re using it this time. And the point of this alliterative suggestion is to deal with the problem. And Elizabeth, you and I have talked about this. This is something that we both have faced, which is you want to raise an issue or a question, you have a topic for a discussion.
Elizabeth
There’s a topic that needs to be tackled. And the other person says, let’s talk about this later. Yes. Or I don’t want to talk about that.
Gretchen
Yes. This happens to me all the time. I have to say, with especially my husband. Adam. Yeah. Now, Gretchen, we were growing up, we didn’t really do this. We sort of just talked about, yeah, things as they came up. I also think we are people who like to talk through problems. Yes. So, yes, it’s natural to us to talk about a problem.
Elizabeth
That is very true. But I will say that even when I don’t feel like talking about something, I remember when Jamie and I were first together, like I remember being just surprised, like, I didn’t know you could do that. Like, I didn’t know that was like a thing. You could say that you could just be like, I don’t want to talk about that right now.
Elizabeth
And then people would just be like, Okay, It was just never something that was in the realm of possibility.
Gretchen
Yeah.
Elizabeth
And I have to say that I now do it sometimes myself, because once, you know, you can just feel like, Let’s do that later. Maybe it’ll go away magically. It can be tempting if there’s something that is going to be burdensome to talk about.
Gretchen
And one thing is there’s a difference between I don’t want to talk about something which I will say if it’s, you know, like, say I got a pilot passed on, I may just not feel like talking about it because I don’t feel like dwelling in it right now. Yes. That to me is different from let’s talk about when we’re going to go to Kansas City for Christmas.
Gretchen
What day should I get the tickets? You know what I mean. There’s different types of topics.
Elizabeth
And there are certain things where it just has to be hashed out or it needs to be hashed out, even if it’s arduous or it requires a lot of calendar planning or is unpleasant, or there’s a values conflict where it’s like, okay, we’re going to have to sort through different priorities. I mean, there are things that are just hard to talk about.
Elizabeth
They’re just burdensome to talk about.
Gretchen
Yeah. And if you are dealing with someone who doesn’t want to talk about something, it can be very easy to get frustrated and just give up. Yeah.
Elizabeth
And and this can become an issue because things aren’t getting done in a timely way or it becomes a source of conflict. So what’s helpful and this is why we have this tongue twister suggestion is to think, are there ways to have an approach that will make it more likely that the other person will cooperate? And so here are some tips for tackling a topic, and that’s whether you’re dealing with children, sweethearts, family members at work.
Elizabeth
If you’re having trouble with a coworker who doesn’t want to tackle a subject that you really need to nail down, here are some ideas to try.
Gretchen
So the first idea, if you have more than one topic that.
Elizabeth
Needs which you probably do often.
Gretchen
Do you make a list and let the other person choose which topic they want to tackle, right?
Elizabeth
So they get to have some say. They get to pick the thing that’s the least objectionable to them and you get something done and then you take it up again later, but you get something tackled. Another thing is if a person has something that they would like to discuss because often like to complete this game, you’re like, Let’s do a swap.
Elizabeth
You’ve been really wanting to talk about X, I really want to talk about why. Why don’t we set aside some time and we’ll do both of them or we’ll like agree that we’ll do yours, we’ll do mine. And that way both people get what they want.
Gretchen
And then you could also do a topic. Let’s make a list and then just choose a random. I guess that’s kind of gamified. Yeah.
Elizabeth
And then also you can let them choose the time. This is one, I have to say, for my personal experience, this one works really well with Jamie because he’ll say, I don’t want to talk about that now. And then I’ll say, just like, not angrily, I’ll just say, okay, well, how about after dinner? Or do you want to talk about it during the weekend?
Elizabeth
And then that person can pick a time where they think that they will be ready to deal with it. I do think that a lot of times this is something where giving the person more control and letting them suit themselves really helps. And you might say, But I’m doing this for everybody or like we’re we’re at work, everybody needs this.
Elizabeth
Like, this isn’t up to one person. But the fact is, if you want someone to cooperate, you want to set it up so that you will get that cooperation. And by giving them more control, giving them more choice, making them feel like they’re more in the driver’s seat, I really do think that that helps. I have found that I really do get much more cooperation when I say to the person, you get to have a lot of control about how and when this happens, but it just it needs to happen within a reasonable timeframe.
Gretchen
Yeah. And Gretchen, you know how we say the opposite of a truth is also true? I also think it’s true that if you just say every Monday night, we talk about things that need to be talked about and it’s not a choice and it’s just established that can also help because it kind of takes some of the emotion away from it because it’s not me saying, we need to talk about it.
Gretchen
It’s Monday night. That’s when we do these things.
Elizabeth
I’ve heard from so many people where they have sort of an administrative hour or whatever, and it works really well. Yeah, this is someplace where you might want to think about the four tendencies. Again. If you don’t know about the four tendencies, go to staging.gretchenrubin.com/quiz and all will be revealed. But this is a kind of thing where let’s say if you had an upholder and in a blazer, putting it on the calendar might work really, really well and then people would just keep a running list.
Elizabeth
And then we know on Monday afternoon we’ll talk about it or whatever. If you’re dealing with rubble, that might be really difficult because they don’t like that feeling of being trapped into a time where might be much more spontaneously. Like if at 1130 at night, they’re like, I’m ready to talk about it. You have to be like, okay, it’s not what I would have picked, but if you’re ready, I’m ready.
Elizabeth
So I think thinking about how to set it up for the Four tendencies, because Jamie is a questioner, my husband’s a questioner often say, like, if we don’t decide this now, there might not be more availability, right? Certain things, it’s more efficient to decide now or airline tickets are going to go up. We need to figure this out so we can get our tickets now.
Elizabeth
And it’s like, okay, that’s a reason why we’re doing it now instead of waiting two weeks. And so, yeah, questioners want reasons Obligers need accountability. Rebels need choice and freedom or, you know, tap into their identity. You have to think about how to tailor the decision and the strategy.
Gretchen
Yeah. And then, of course, Gretchen, we also have to remind ourselves to answer this question honestly, which is do I need more information or do I need to just make a decision?
Elizabeth
This is a real problem for me. I try to drag other people into things and I realize I don’t actually need them to weigh it. They do not have information that I need. I do not need to weigh their opinion. I am just trying to offload difficult decision making by pulling somebody else in and trying to like foisted off on them.
Elizabeth
This is a ploy I make. And I realized I say to myself, I feel like I’m frustrated because I want to talk about the subject, but do I even need to talk about the subject? I should just call you Elizabeth and be like, I need to figure this out. And just like, yes, you know, it’s what a friend of mine calls this intuiting by extra wording, which is like for some people talking through a problem is very effective and very comforting and like, really helps you arrive at a good decision.
Elizabeth
So let’s just maybe you and I just need to do that more with each other. Even if we have nothing to add. It’s like, I’ll listen to you talk about that.
Gretchen
Yes. And this I mean, this whole thing is very true for me of Jack and what he’s going to do in this summer. It’s like it needs to be talked about. Nobody wants to think about it. But if you don’t think about it, the options start to close off. So I am going to take these tips to tackle a tough topic.
Elizabeth
And maybe also a deadline because it’s just occurring to me. Now, another thing that people say to delay is they say, why would we talk about this now? It’s so far away and you’re like, right, seems far away, but it’s sooner than you think. And programs fill up. Some people just feel much more pressed for time than others do.
Elizabeth
And so this is another thing that can affect the timing of discussing something. So again, it’s like, okay, well, maybe you think it’s too early now. When do you think we need to talk about it by? And if it’s like, well, what about at the end of the month? And you’re like, okay, on the end of the month though, right?
Elizabeth
Then we’re going to talk about it because then so it’s again sort of working with the person to figure out why are they delaying, why are they objecting and like letting them weigh in on how to have that conversation. This happened to me recently with Jamie. I think I’m my 24 for 24. I said, hey, I really want to plan a family trip to Japan.
Elizabeth
And thank you to all the listeners who wrote in with all sorts of suggestions. I really, really want to go to Japan. But finally I said to Jamie, like, We really need to sit down. This is a major trip. There’s a lot of considerations and like we need to sit down and think about like, when could we go and how long would we need?
Elizabeth
And he said to me, Look, Gretchen, he just took this big volunteer job with nature, which is the New York City Housing Authority. It’s like a very, very, very big responsibility on top of his full time job. And he’s really excited about it. But it’s just a huge responsibility. And he said to me, Gretchen, I just can’t be away that long.
Elizabeth
That far away when, you know, I’m just starting this big new responsibility that’s really important to me and is going to demand a lot. And I was like, Well, thank you. Because now I’m like, it’s not going to happen this calendar year and I can stop fussing about it and stop bringing it up. Yeah, but it took me really just like hopping around in front of him, being like, we got to talk about it.
Elizabeth
And finally I was just like, It’s off the table. And I was like.
Gretchen
Okay, yes.
Elizabeth
That is also an answer. And I get it. Like the minute he said it, I’m like 100%. I understand why this this isn’t the time for that adventure. Yeah, fair enough. But I did that whole thing. I’m like, We’re going to have to talk about it. Can we talk about it later? You know? Yeah. Okay. We’re going to sit around and talk about it.
Elizabeth
And he’s like, okay, it’s off the table. All right.
Gretchen
You talked about we.
Elizabeth
Talked about it. So let us know if you did try this at home and how trying a topic tackler works for you. Elizabeth I love the alliteration. We need to lean into alliteration more, I think. Let us know on Instagram, Threads, Tik Tok, Facebook. Drop us an email podcast@staging.gretchenrubin.com Or as always you can go to the show notes.
Elizabeth
This is episode 465 so you can go to happiercast.com/465 for everything related to this episode.
Gretchen
Coming up, we have a no homework book club hack. But first spring.
Gretchen
All right. We are back with this week’s Happiness Hack.
Elizabeth
This is a great suggestion that comes from Sarah. She says, My suggestion, is to start a no homework book club. I love getting together with friends to talk about books, but I don’t enjoy a long, in-depth discussion of a single book or literary analysis. I saw a tik tok that suggested an alternate format for a book club, and I decided to try it.
Elizabeth
Each month you get together and everyone just talks about what they’ve been reading or listening to books, podcasts, long form articles, etc.. You share what you liked and didn’t, and if you’d recommend it to others. This format is low pressure and for me makes for a more interesting discussion because you learn about lots of books from a diverse group of people.
Elizabeth
It also solves the problem of a discussion petering out because people haven’t completed the book. And it particularly appealed to my rebel sister, who is an avid reader and loves sharing her favorites but wants to read what she wants to read. In my group, I volunteer to take notes on the recommendations, which I later type into a Google doc.
Elizabeth
This isn’t necessary, but our group really liked having it to refer to since we got so many reading recommendations. So I think this is a great idea because everybody loves recommendations. Elizabeth, what do you call at the end of Happier in Hollywood? You have a fire.
Gretchen
Just a recommendation and now is a star weekly recommendation and yeah, and it’s of anything.
Elizabeth
I think people are always looking at what’s a great podcast, what’s a great TV show, what’s in all my book groups? At the end we start, we will say, and what else are people doing that they would recommend? It’s also great to tell people, Hey, don’t bother. I started that And you know, there are people where you know that you trust their judgment.
Elizabeth
And if they got if they read a book and they’re like, I just I’m not sure I would recommend it. I’m like, okay, that’s good to know, too.
Gretchen
Yeah, it’s really a true no guilt book club. Yeah, that’s one of my favorite things about a book club is talking to people about other books. So I love this idea.
Elizabeth
It is true many, many rebels will say that they don’t want to do it. Somebody else tells them to do. And a lot of questioners also say, Why would I read a book just because a bunch of people picked it? All the tendencies can have issues with it. And this is a way that you can get around that.
Elizabeth
So I love that.
Gretchen
And it’s really building relationships.
Elizabeth
That is a huge part of why we are part of these groups. And here’s a bonus hack if you are joining us for the annual challenge of Write 24 and 24 and you want a free PDF so you can keep track of whether you’re doing it. You can download that. Gretchen Rubin dot com slash resources. I’ll post a link in the show notes and I want to say thank you and Gold Star to these sharp eyed listeners who reminded me that 2024 is a leap year.
Elizabeth
So now that page has been updated to include February 29th. So if you got the old sheet and you were wondering where your February 29th is, now it is there. So for people who like don’t break the chain or whatever. Heard from a lot of people who are excited about write 24 and 24. There’s your free sheet. Hey and now for an interview today we are going to be talking to Rohan Gunatillake who has been described as a meditation entrepreneur, a title that I love.
Gretchen
He’s the host of the popular podcast Meditative Story, which helps listeners cultivate mindfulness through story. It’s a very original and engaging way to build your mindfulness, something many people want to do. Here’s a description. Meditative story combines the emotional pull of first person storytelling with the immediate science backed benefits of mindfulness practice, all surrounded by breathtaking and cinematic music.
Elizabeth
I was a guest on meditative story, and I so enjoy the experience. I’ll post a link in the show notes or, you know, you can just search for it. If you go to a meditative story and search for Gretchen Rubin. I really enjoyed that experience. In addition to his podcast, Rohan has worked in design in public sector health care, designed the butterfly and wrote the book Modern Mindfulness How to be More relaxed, focused and Kind while living in a fast digital always on world.
Elizabeth
That sounds like something we all need.
Gretchen
Welcome, Rohan.
Elizabeth
Welcome.
Rohan
Hi there. Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Elizabeth
you know, we’re so happy to be talking to you.
Gretchen
Yes. So many people seem to take the view that to be more mindful, we need to shut ourselves off from technology. You’ve done a lot to harness the power of technology to help people become more mindful. What is your thinking in that area?
Rohan
I guess my general approach to mindfulness has always been about including everything and including everything everywhere, all the time. Rather than mine just being something that looks like something in particular. And technology is, I guess, part of that. And in conventional, if you go to like, if you think about conventional mindfulness training, you learn on the cushion y you learn in a sort of formal way.
Rohan
And then once you’ve got settled in that your teacher might go, Now go and take what you’ve learned into the rest of your life, into your relationship, into your work, but you’ve not learned in those situations. So you you’re learning in the sort of stylized lab environment, the cushion, the mat, whatever, whatever you want to call it. And formal meditation, as I might call it.
Rohan
And then whereas all the stresses are not informal meditation, your stresses are in your day job or whatever it is, your family life. So I know that’s a legitimate approach and it can work. My preference is to always is to turn the inside out and why don’t we start by learning in the messiness of life? Because that’s where our stresses are.
Rohan
And then we can use formal practice to deepen that learning. And so technology is just part of that messiness and so learning. So I think the danger is sort of compartmentalizing. Technology is something that is not mindful, just means it becomes a thing that we pathologize and demonize. And, you know, I get it also because, you know, I’m a bit of a geek when it comes to the history of mindfulness and meditation.
Rohan
I sort of and, you know, a lot of the Western my first tradition comes from the hippie early post hippie movement where it was just quite anti-technology and digital. And so the echo of that is felt now in Europe. And the question is of like, well, you know, we learn mindfulness in a very particular way, which, you know, teaches, you know, when you think about you think about the generation, the great contemporary, say, American or Western teachers, the sort of Sharon Salzberg there, Jack Cornfield, they’re sort of big names.
Rohan
You know, they don’t have very active digital lives and so they don’t teach about it. Whereas I’m the I’m sort of part of a generation who largely grew up with technology, then I grew up with technology and computers in our lives, but also grew up learning meditation. And so I’m part of a generation that have learned to do that all together.
Rohan
And it’s sort of natural to me because I’ve had to because, you know, I had, you know, so when I first got into meditation, I had the choice of, you know, I was learning a very traditional style, but my life was I was living in London at the time working sort of corpus stuff. And, you know, I was loving it.
Rohan
It was fast as digital. It was like relational. And so I had the choice of like, do I keep those two things separate or do I? And but if I did, I almost felt like it wasn’t relevant. Gleaning the whole point of mindfulness is to bring more wisdom and kindness and compassion and insight to your life. And if it wasn’t doing that, then it wouldn’t be working.
Rohan
And the great thing about the my position, it’s always been an evolutionary it’s an evolutionary thing, and it’s changed and adapted over time. And I just think digital or technology is sort of the frontier and I think frontier of sort of modern, modern mindfulness. And I think there’s a lot of interesting stuff happening there. And if you want again, if you want to think about the history of mindfulness, it’s always been about inclusion.
Rohan
So go back couple of thousand years and it would be like, okay, you can’t do mindfulness meditation unless you were a monk. And then we then they broke down that barrier and then said, Actually, you can’t do this unless you are a man. And then then female tradition started and then they said, you can’t do this unless you’re Asian.
Rohan
And then that barrier changed and now the the barrier is actually and you can’t do this unless you turn off your devices. I thought, you know, if I’ve heard this story before and I’ve seen historically how all these barriers have been removed, that’s why I’m optimistic about mindfulness and the contemplative wisdom traditions and technology, because because unless we do, you know, technology is not going away.
Rohan
Spoiler alert for right? 100 years. It’s not going away. And so if we don’t include it, then it’s no longer relevant.
Elizabeth
Well, it certainly seems a lot more realistic and therefore more practical and that people will be more likely to succeed because it’s more in line with the actual way they live their lives. Instead of setting aside this very special time that has special rules and that might make it harder to be consistent with it. So what are you think are some of the biggest stumbling blocks that people face when trying to stay more mindful?
Rohan
I think it’s in a way, it’s in your mind, what is the image of what is being mindful look like? Right. And so, you know, you talk while there, Gretchen, about the idea of digital detox or letting go of like you’re turning your device off and in a way that’s what people’s mental models. So I think for me it’s that because often it’s there the perception that I don’t have time.
Rohan
I’m too busy. And these are all effectively perceptions of what this looks like. And so I always try to pull it back to, okay, what are you trying to achieve? So my my working definition of mindfulness is using your attention to develop positive qualities on purpose. So, for example, for some people that might be calm, for other people that be focused by other people, kindness, whatever it is that a particular individual wants to achieve, and then, okay, if you want to if you want to work on body awareness or kindness, then let’s have a conversation about how do you do that whilst using your phone?
Rohan
And so it becomes a much more rich thing because then it’s no longer I don’t have to turn my technology off. It becomes a challenge and a creative challenge, really, of how to to do that in in practice. So just an example. Again, anyone who’s gone to a yoga class or meditation class, first thing you do is you learn a body awareness technique.
Rohan
You know, become aware of your breath, become aware the sensation of your body on the ground, whatever it might be. The example of using that with your phone is whilst holding your phone, know what it’s like to know what your phone feels like whilst you are using it. It sounds like such a simple, almost mundane instruction or idea, but what you are doing there is you’re, you’re being physically present with the experience of scrolling Instagram, whatever it is.
Rohan
Penny playing Candy Crush day. Like, does it really matter? And if you are able to do that at the same time as while you’re doing what you’re doing on your phone, then part of your mind is present, part of your mind. And because it’s in contact with physical sensation, it means that you’re less likely to get sucked into the wormhole of content.
Rohan
Because there’s just a little that little bit more central ness and presence. And so this little sort of hack so you talk about stumbling blocks, I think is very much this seeing that actually that counts as mindfulness. And that’s a it’s a way of bringing mindfulness into the making a layer on my on my existing life rather than me having to find the time to go and do something, you know, quiet time is there.
Rohan
Luxury is as is seen as the scarcest resource in a lot of people’s lives.
Gretchen
Well, and again, I love how practical that is. You can do it while playing Candy Crush. That’s as practical as it gets.
Rohan
Can I.
Gretchen
Just.
Rohan
Say massive? I’ve never been. That’s never been me. But, Yeah. And I think that’s my thing about, like, creative, accessible ways to practice and explore mindfulness in a place that’s still sort of legit. Mindfulness. I would pass the pass the test and any of stuff that I’ve had to work out for myself, you know, because these are things that I do.
Rohan
And so you sort of take very what I’ve done in my own practice effectively into my sort of all this stuff that whether it’s apps or podcasts or whatever it is, I’ve just taken core classic techniques, body awareness, concentration, kindness, inquiry, the sort of very classic mindfulness techniques, and then go, okay, how do you do that whilst you’re on the subway?
Rohan
How do you do that? What’s your browsing the web? How do you do that when you’re having a difficult, difficult conversation with a colleague or with a with a partner?
Elizabeth
And that’s a great lead into the question that we ask every guest, which is if you can suggest to try this at home suggestion for people to try starting tomorrow. That doesn’t take a lot of time, energy or money that you think would boost their happiness. What would you suggest?
Rohan
I would say something about since we’re talking I technology sound about distraction, right? So the one thing I would say would be get interested in the process of distraction. So when you’re you know, every day you know I’m doing some work and then when I’m not without me realizing I’m suddenly like to like go to a completely different device and I’m looking at stuff on my phone and then what I’ve learned over time is that by becoming really interested in that process, you can catch it early and earlier in the process, You know, the first thing you might notice though, actually I’ve come from somewhere completely different.
Rohan
And then if you bring a bit more interest to it, you may even notice the movement of your hand going to your pocket.
Elizabeth
Watch your.
Rohan
Or tea or whatever. Yeah. And then it, you become really if you get really into it doesn’t take very long literally like can just take a few days to get really into it. You can just feel that little nudge. It’s not even a physical things, it’s like a launch in the mind to go, I wonder if I okay.
Rohan
Then then it becomes really fascinating because then you realize suddenly, from my experience, is that I started noticing my mind state that initiated a distraction thing. A distraction process. And what I was noticing was that I was feeling bored or lonely, and that ended up in me going to then go to my phone and check the football scores or whatever it might be.
Rohan
And I said, actually, what’s happening is I’m actually trying to be kind to myself because I’m actually not feeling I’m feeling a bit bored. And so I basically using this as a kind of comfort mechanism and then the more I’ve learned about that and then, you know, you’ll notice both of you say, well, is that through the all the conversations you have, which is the more we know about our pattern, especially if it’s the maybe a negative pattern, the less power it has.
Rohan
And we can just catch it a little bit earlier. And so it wouldn’t, you know, just be okay with it. I’m just feeling a bit bored. I don’t necessarily need to actually sort of move on to the next thing. So that’s my that’s my tip is to get interested in distraction. And the more interesting distraction you are, the less likely it might happen.
Elizabeth
Excellent. Well, that’s very I think that resonates with most of us, I believe. Julie? Yeah. Well, thanks so much. It’s so great to get the chance to talk to you.
Rohan
Great. Likewise. Thanks so much.
Gretchen
Thank you, Rohan.
Elizabeth
Thank you.
Gretchen
Coming up, Gretchen has identified the problem demerit. But first, this break.
Gretchen
Okay we’re back with this week’s DeMerit and Gold Star gets Europe up with a happiness demerit.
Elizabeth
Okay so this is a demerit where I snatch triumph from the jaws of defeat at the end. Okay, so I always talk about identify the problem, right? Once we identify the problem, it’s a lot easier to spot a solution. But it can be hard to identify the problem. So really work to identify the problem. Okay, so I’ve been talking about that for so long and only recently in the last week did I identify a problem that was extremely easy to fix the minute that I identified with it after struggling with this for years.
Elizabeth
Okay, so this is what it is. It is it you know, from doing live events with me, probably that I have a curse with the countdown clock. Yes. If you do public speaking on a stage, very typically there is a countdown clock so that you know how much time you have, because if you’re supposed to speak for 40 minutes, it’s very easy to be off by 10 minutes.
Elizabeth
It’s just you need a clock to help you stay on time. And there is something about me. I have some kind of magnetic force where eight times a countdown clock has failed. One time they did it with an iPad and the Wi-Fi went down. One time the person forgot to start it. One time they set the wrong time.
Elizabeth
So like it wasn’t connected to what I was doing anyway. So I always say to people, I have a curse with the countdown clock. Watch it, Watch, watch it. But sometimes I’m in places where there is no countdown clock and there’s not even a clock on the wall. Sometimes they’ll be like a clock on the back wall, which as a speaker, you can see and look up.
Elizabeth
So it’s getting ready to do a workshop with a bunch of Yale Law School students, which was super, super fun. And I was getting ready for it. It was going to be long. And I thought, they’re probably not going to have a countdown clock because it’s a fairly small group and there might be a clock on the wall, but there might not be a clock on the wall.
Elizabeth
And then there’s people are always like, you can set your phone so it doesn’t turn off. So you can always see the time. But I’m like, I’ve tried that. That never really works, right? So identify the problem. What is the problem? I need a countdown clock. I need a clock that’s visible that won’t turn off. And then I’m like, I can just buy a travel alarm clock.
Elizabeth
Yeah. Show me the.
Gretchen
Digital alarm clock, of.
Elizabeth
Which there are a bazillion for ten bucks. I bought one. That is exactly what I need. I got it. Took it to the workshop. It worked perfectly. And I had the brilliant idea. I’m going to take out the batteries because I only needed to work when I needed to work, which is rarely. But when I need it, I really need it.
Elizabeth
And this just a huge problem for me. And yet it has taken me all this time to realize I don’t need to worry about it. I can just fix it. So anyway, the demerit is taking so long to figure it out. But then I do give myself a gold star for having finally bought myself the clock that solves this problem.
Gretchen
That is so good and so you can just, like, keep it in the backpack you take with you to speak and exactly be there. Yes, I love it.
Elizabeth
I can always just put it somewhere where it’s visible and then in the end I can always. Now. Yeah. So what is your gold star?
Gretchen
Well, Gretch, I am giving a gold star to my son, Jack, my 14 year old son. This week because he gave a little speech at school about his boxing. So every week, a couple of different students have to speak in chapel, and he spoke about boxing and he did such a good job. Both what he wrote was really good.
Gretchen
I thought his delivery was really good. And I mean, that is nerve racking. We talk a lot about public speaking and how hard it is. And one thing I love that his school is really get the kids doing this every year, really starting in kindergarten. They have to do public speaking. You know, it’s very nerve wracking. And he did a great job and they showed a little video of him and, you know, he took it like a champ.
Gretchen
So to use the boxing metaphor. So I was very proud and I gave him a gold star for that.
Elizabeth
I give him a gold star as well, because you sent a video to our family. And the thing is, he seemed so composed, so natural. It was hundreds of kids. This was like stand up in front of your classroom. This is like an assembly. And he used the microphone. He just seemed so at ease. And one of the things about a speaker is if the speaker seems at ease, you feel more at ease.
Elizabeth
And if someone’s really nervous, you feel their anxiety as a listener. And I just thought, my gosh, at 14 that remarkable. And the Gold Star to Jack and Gold Star for the school for helping to help them build to that level of comfort with something that is so widely a source of anxiety for.
Gretchen
People and something that for the rest of your life, at certain points, you need to speak in public. Yeah, so it’s just such a good skill to build.
Elizabeth
Yeah. A wedding toast, talking to a school group, giving a presentation at work, a eulogy? A eulogy. No Gold star. The resource for this week OC. One of the things I’m doing for 2024 is I have reconfigured my five things, making me happy newsletter to be sleeker, better, just generally upgraded, I’m really excited. And one of the elements that I’ve added is five things to try.
Elizabeth
This is once a month. It’s part of the newsletter flow and it suggests five things to try. It’s a slightly different version of try this at Home and and hacks. It has practical tips and strategies to help you make progress on whatever your aims is. This is something that you just get once a month. So if you subscribe to the five things at the link in the show notes, you can sign up for my newsletter.
Elizabeth
And that is one of the things that you will get. And I love a tip and a hack and a strategy. Elizabeth So I really love working on this one each month. Absolutely. So sign up. I will put a link in the show notes. Analysts ask, What are we reading? What are you reading?
Gretchen
I am reading Class, a memoir by Stephanie Land.
Elizabeth
And I’m just about to start My Own Country by Abraham Verghese. And that’s it for this episode of Happier. Remember, try this at home. Try a tip to tackle the topic. But still, if you tried it, if you could say it and if it worked for you.
Gretchen
Thank you to Rohan Gunatillake. You can listen to his podcast, Meditative Story. Thank you to our executive producer Chuck Reed, and everyone at Cadence 13. Get in touch. Gretchen’s on Instagram and Threads and Tick Tock at Gretchen Rubin and I am on Instagram and Threads at Liz Craft, Our email address is podcast at Gretchen Rubin dot com.
Elizabeth
And if you like the show, please be sure to tell a friend and subscribe to us. Great and review the show. That is how people a new podcast or you can talk about our podcast in your no homework podcast club.
Gretchen
Like until next week. I’m Elizabeth Craft.
Elizabeth
And I’m Gretchen Rubin. Thanks for joining us. Onward and upward.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, don’t you find that the way you get recommendations mostly is when people recommend it? I watch TV shows because people in a book club recommended I find a book because somebody in passing recommends. Though I do listen to a lot of podcasts and read a lot of stuff that just gives recommendations. I love getting recommendations.
Gretchen
Yes, I mean, especially with podcasts almost exclusively. It’s because someone recommended it. Or maybe I’ll hear an ad.
Elizabeth
For you and Eliza and Eleanor listen to a lot of the same podcasts. I often I’m like, I know what, this is a scam podcast. I know exactly who wants to listen to this. From the Onward Project.